A “Born ins” challenge to develop a "post cult" personality.

I really feel for those born in, and who have members of their household, or very close family still in, I am so sorry that the struggle is a constant one for you.

If you are in a household like mine, wifey and I left together, it makes it so much easier to simply slough off the old JW way of thinking and speaking.

I had a very strong personality of my own, I never was a fully believing JW and never went along with all the silliness, so again, easy for me, but I can see how hard it must be for some.

It still hurts that I have had so many wasted years, that I was so abysmally ignorant, and that my whole Worldview has had to change, even if that old view was not 100% JW.

I hope you all manage to get your closest loved ones out, if not your whole family, but even if you do not, you will find that as time passes a "New You" starts to emerge, though you may not be aware of it until someone says "You used to............(whatever)" and you think to yourself "Boy, I have changed !"

You will have the satisfaction too of knowing you are becoming a much better person.

I think the questions you are asking yourself, and the goals you are setting, are excellent SIAM, and show that you are already so very free in your mind and heart.

All the best to you, and to all in your situation.

Sometimes I think being a born-in biggest effect on me is the inabilty to see beyond a few years. Where do I want to be in 10 or 20 years. We were not prepared for that (the end would come in 75, right?). So all was about short term goals (prefereably pionnering goals). We were not prepared to see parents get old and die; we were not prepared to plan, age, retire.

Por the past few years I've worked hard on getting past this limitation (and others).

I've always had a pretty strong sense of "self" -- perhaps because my father was a wicked, evil worldly man and encouraged me to use my brain, and probably because it's just part of my makeup. Being mentally out, I feel the same the same as before, but better. The main thing that changed for me was my worldview, which is now grounded in reality rather than in fantasy jwworld. First thing I did when I woke up is what I would have done if I hadn't gotten baptized my last year of HS - I enrolled in college.

The hardest thing for me to see the rest of my family still spinning their wheels going nowhere-- it can get depressing. Its like there is just this malaise over everyone, but of course "satan" is to blame for that. If they only knew.

I think my wife's greatest fear is at times that I am such an independent person, that I could just say "the hell with the religion, and you too!" ---- though that's just another JW thought control technique!

Stuckinamovement, your post is so clear and beautiful describing what it is like to be born in, and the work that must be done once a person is out.  It also lines up perfectly with child development theory.

From the perspective of child development theory:

Children raised JWs are not allowed to develop normally because their adolescent developmental NEEDS are not met.

Each stage of human development has certain needs, and these needs must be met for development to proceed in a healthy way. Infants need to learn to trust and to feel secure. Preschoolers need to practice doing things on their own (‘NO! Let ME do it! I can pour the milk myself!) School age kids need to DO stuff (bike ride, build models, play house, whatever)

JWs can raise very developmentally healthy children.... up to this point.

But adolescents have needs, too. They NEED to try out identities (am I a preppy person? A rocker? An athlete?). They NEED to feel connected to a wide variety of peer groups to do it. They try out different clothes, music and friends. They need to question their beliefs and look for reasons for beliefs. JW parents who insist on following the Borg rules cannot allow their children to meet these developmental needs. Forcing an adolescent to live by Borg rules is abusive and damaging to their development.

Because JW adolscents can't do the important work of adolescence, people raised as JW don't achieve the results of all that work: their own adult identity. (instead they become 'identity forclosed' or 'identity diffused.')

We who were raised in have to go back and do the developmental work of adolescence that we didn't do as teenagers. It takes teenagers 5 to 8 years to do this work and establish an identity of their own, so we should give ourselves lots of time.   After all, we have to do the work of being adults AND the work of adolescence at the same time, so it could take us longer.   And we should be very patient with ourselves, allowing ourselves to go out on limbs to try things, allowing ourselves to try things and fail, or try identities and then reject them when we find 'that's not me'....this is all part of the process....

The good news is that we are normal, we are not broken. We are just doing this work later than most people do it.

I think being a born-in biggest effect on me is the inabilty to see beyond a few years. Where do I want to be in 10 or 20 years.

That was my main issue as well.

As far as the "black and white" thinking, I've never had that.  Even when I was a small child, I understood some things are "gray".  That may be one reason it was impossible for me to stay in that religion.

For the  most part, we missed our developmental years constantly attending meetings and field service and staying away from worldly people.  We miss learning how to be social like most children do.  We were frequently outcasts, because apparently it pleases god when children are confused or embarassed.

It does get much better.  Like someone else stated, we just get a late start getting to know ourselves.

Excellent opening post.

I can relate 100%, as I remember first stepping into a Kingdom Hall at 5 years of age.

I'm in the midst of locating my real identity now in my mid-40's. At first it was tragic. Now I try to view it as a wonderful journey. Being able to try something just a little different keeps my sanity in check.

Thanks again SIAM for putting in words what many of us feel.

Alligator Wisdom (aka Brother NOT Exerting Vigorously)

Alligator, are you sure you are not me? You just described me!

Thanks for the feedback. From your comments it is clear that I am not the only one trying to build a "post cult" personality.  Looks like we are all in good company.

SIAM

John_Mann "The very pain is to live in a world you not raised to live in. They promised that we never grow old in this "system of things". Willing or not I think that meme will be with us forever in our subconscience."

That sums it up perfectly.  

(By the way my father brought someone called John Mann into the religion. I was also about 4 at the time and lived in London. Maybe not your father but it made me think)   

With regard to the opening post of this thread - although our mind is conditioned by what we are told to believe when young, we can rebel and break out of the mental prison we have been held in. Our natural personality will come through and flourish once we are free, if we allow it to. 

What I want to know SIAM is how do we go about doing it? Especially when you're in your 'senior' years and everyone you know is 'in it'. How can you go about finding your real self? I was born and brought up a JW. pioneered straight from school, got married, had kids (and dead end jobs) and now have a grandchild... so.. what do I do next and how??? Is it just a waste of time even attempting it at this time of life?

And I'm sure I'm not the only one asking this...

Hi Tornapart. I don't have the answer really but I empathize. Each of us needs to make a values based decision for ourselves as to what we decide to do. No matter what decision we make (whether to stay or leave),  will be tough and knowing that fact going into the process will give you resolve.  I don't think that it is a waste of time to try to reinvent ourselves at any stage of life. The older we are the harder it is though.  

Your dilemma is the same as any other born in who realizes that their foundational beliefs are wrong. As an older one you just have less time to work with.  Ask yourself the questions mentioned in the original post. I have a feeling that you are not as far off from being your "real self" as you think. 

your bro SIAM

I agree I always was trying to find myself as a Jw teen but I now feel that I knwo myself better at 21 then I did at 13.

Fantastic post! Resonates perfectly with my own situation!

Your personal conscience is not really your own, it is built on the mandates of some man in Brooklyn who has declared what is right and wrong for you. As a “born in” you accept that and never learn how to make a personal decision based on facts, logic or reason. You simply obey.

^I struggle with this MANY times. I have had difficulty thinking for myself over the years. I have seen that as I grew older and began questioning....whenever some line of thought was out of harmony with the Watchtower, I could not not figure out how to go beyond it.  If it's not spelled out for me, how can I react to it without negative repercussions to myself or others?

As a “born in” you might have developed a social disability that prevents you from becoming too close to anyone who is “worldly”. This same disability at the same time affects your relationship with those within the faith. You are often times on guard about what you say and the thoughts that you express for fear that you become labeled as weak or bad association.  All of your relationships are superficial at some level because inside you know that there might be the chance that you will have to cut-off a friendship if the organization demands it. Why get too close to someone that you might have to shun?  This caution results in having few close friends that you can share honest thoughts and feelings with.

^AMEN!!!! No matter who that friend is or what their position in "God's Organization", they is NEVER a guaruntee that they will remain. There are many many examples in every congregation. Why grow to love a friend and share everything with them, only to see them leave and be shunned later on? They only ones I became close with were those who were "on the fence".

What do I love to do? What makes me laugh? Where do I want to be in 10 years, 20, or 30, or 50 (hopefully)?  What type of people do I want to be friends with? What are personal qualities that I value? If I died today, what would I want people to say about me? How do I give back to my community in ways that are measurable? What can I do to make sure my kids are raised without a “cult personality”? 

^I constantly ask myself these questions, among others. It's difficult for a born in to know who they truly are with only the Borg as their original and only line of thought.

One of my main issues is that I don't know what a real friend is. The Watchtower prints wonderful articles on unconditional love, being encouraging, and being there for one another. It's unfortunate that much of what is printed is not what plays out in actual practice. I have constantly struggled with what a real friend is. If they do something I don't like....do I drop them like a hot potato? Do I have to believe the same thing as you to be a true friend? If you suddenly confess to me that you believe anything different....do I just drop you as a friend?  It's incredible how much indoctrination hold over one's life.

SIAM I thought you may find this interesting.

I would say the worst thing for me has been that I'm a late blommer in almost everyway.  I was stunted in education, human and sexual relationships and really understanding my little corner of the world. 

I "offically" lost my virginity at 25 ( I was raped at 5 and I don't count that), started smoking at 25, (not that, that is a good thing or anything) and got my educational goals together at 35.  It has taken me a while to adjust to the outside world, but I feel like my personality is pretty much the same. 

You have to think about how much a born in believed it was "the truth."  I never believed and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that my transition although tough, wasn't something I couldn't move on from eventually. Then again I also have contact with my parents and a pretty normal relationship with them both.

My life is blossoming more than ever right now.  I've been out 14 years and I am in college about to recieve another Dean's List award ($ in a row so far) and I'm in the honor socity for two year colleges, Phi Theta Kappa.  I have more friends than I ever did before and I'm accepted by more groups than I ever was before. I'm involved with more things than ever before.

It has been 14 years for me ( since I DA ed) and I have also had the help of boards like this one and others to if not vent to, to read and learn from others. I would say that if my entire moral code had been obliterated it might have been harder.  I still believe it's wrong to lie, steal, and cheat, not because some religion tells me so, but because that moral code came from lessons learned in my own life.  I never was one to just listen to someone just because they said so and I'm still not.

Thanks Mickey that was interesting. 

SIAM

OMG Siam.  You hit the nail on the head. I've been out 12 yrs and I still feel empty. I divorced my husband when he was outed.  He stayed a while in the cong but he is living openly gay in another state. My immediate family all died within the last 4 yrs.  I might be better if I had someone with me or had children.  I feel very untethered but I'm trying to become more active in the unitarian church because they are very active in socal justice. I just about hate the holidays and I am uncomfortable in many social situations because I don't have that history of reference that most people have. I am a good little actress so I get by. I think that it probably will never change.  It's kind of like when children miss certain stages of developement at specific ages they reallly are just shit out of luck. If my mom knew what was going to happen to our family I know she would have felt really bad.  But it just is what it is.

Great post SIAM. I'm struggling with this, not for myself, but to try and figure out how to reach my two sons who are both "Born-ins". 

A while ago I wrote to Steven Hassan about this very question. As you no doubt know he frequently talks about trying to reach the "Pre-Cult Personality" as the best way to rescue someone from a cult. But what do you do for someone that has not "Pre-Cult" experience? 

Unfortunately he never responded. But his second book, Releasing the Bonds, does address this issue albeit somewhat obliquely. 

You're on the right track with some questions and thoughts. But it might help to think back over your life as a young person growing up: What were your interests, hobbies, passions and concerns? 

If you had not been raised a JW what things might you have pursued? 

I know one of my sons is a very talented artist. But we discouraged him from pursuing that because we thought it was just "a selfish pursuit". Now of course I regret that I didn't encourage him more. 

But it does give me one avenue that I feel I can go down to try and reach him. Once in an impulsive act he ripped up and destroyed a bunch of his drawings in a display of "Loyalty to Jehovah and theocratic order." (It makes me gag to say that now). 

Fortunately, I rescued them from the trash can and saved them. Sometime in the future I'm going to return them to him. I'm just waiting for the right time. I hope it's soon. 

Look inside yourself. If you could be/do/have anything you want or ever wanted what would it be? 

It's not to late, 

00DAD

00DAD you have a PM. 

SIAM

SIAM, and you have one in return! 

Tag, you're it!!!